View MC2 Session Ideas
Check out the list of topics Seattle Mind Campers said they would like to discuss, and the list of topics Mind Campers would like to learn about.
Don’t forget the Session Ideas from MC 1.0.
When you attend a session, please take notes and add them here: MC2_Session_Notes. We’re also tracking the schedule on the MC2_Session_Grid page.
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*Blogging from an engineering/design company
**Can this be done without compromising proprietary information?
**Would people be interested in reading these types of blogs?
**Friends and families could learn more about what you do
*Mobile device discussions
**What do you do with your smartphone?
**Are we too connected?
**Tips, tricks, hacks, and other cool things to do on a mobile device
*Part-time geeks meetup: Do you do something else in your day job and “Geek out” in your free time?
Palmsolo
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* ‘’‘Jam Sessions’‘’
** A ‘real’ jam session: Bring your instrument
** Robot Jam: Bring your Vex Robotics kit or other robot that we can tinker with
** Lan Jam: Bring your gaming computer and lets play some stoopid shootemups
JackWilliamBell
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* ‘’‘The future of SNS—Mobile’‘’
** I have permission to discuss what I am doing at my day job, some of you might find it pretty interesting.
JackWilliamBell
** ‘‘what is SNS?’‘
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* ‘’‘Sessions I’d like to see’‘’
** Mashups. Using the Amazon API, Google Maps, Google Calendar, etc
*** how about a code-it session to mashup a topology map with a hybrid satellite/road Google map?—Noahv 16:37, 24 Apr 2006 (CDT)
**** Sounds cool to me. Where can we get topo data?
**** prereading: [http://blog.explorationage.com/articles/2006/01/08/how-to-add-a-google-map-to-any-web-page-in-less-than-10-minutes 10 Min Google Map Tutorial]
** PHP Development best practices (What IDE? How to debug?, etc)
** AJAX. Info about Prototype framework.
** Ruby on Rails
** I just bought an airplane. maybe we can have a session about Aviation Tech.
**—Adam Phillabaum
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* ‘’‘Some ideas I’m mulling over for 2.0’‘’:
** Impromptu classic gaming show n’ tell (Dreamcast & Atari 2600).
- Bubble bobble in particular would be awesome.—I’ll bring my ‘’‘[http://www.flickr.com/photos/doublellama/11341422/ mame console]’‘’ and you can play Bubble Bobble all night long.—‘’‘[http://www.doublellama.net Kevin Wagner]’‘’
** I’d give my right arm to play 4 player Warlords on a 2600 - Berkun done. -ario
** Continued brainstorming around the “read me my email in the shower” idea
*** I’m interested in the email in the shower idea too—or in the car, or while mowing the lawn, or sweeping my roof, or walking the treadmill. Taking it a step further, I’d love to be able to have my email read and allow me to take action as it’s read, perhaps by voice command or some other input device. Like in GTD, making the front end decisions as the mail is read—Do, Delegate, or Defer—thus ‘‘clearing’’ the inbox, not just ‘‘hearing’’ it.—Mike Wilkerson 13:07, 26 Apr 2006 (CDT)
** More wi-fi Nintendo DS battles
** audio production show n’ tell (people bring their favorite audio tools and talk about neat things they’ve done with them)
** same for photography… maybe like a digital photography hacks session Ario Jafarzadeh
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* Brainstorming session
** ‘’‘Solutions to Information Overload’‘’ - Can we ever get there? Alex Barnett
** ‘’‘Attention’‘’ Alex Barnett
** ‘’‘My Data’‘’ Alex Barnett
::I guess I should just follow Alex around, because I resonate with these topics.
:::+3 ‘’orcmid 15:44, 28 Apr 2006 (CDT)’‘
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* electronic dictionary / translation projects
** does anyone else use electronic dictionaries (e.g. Japanese <--> English).
*** This guy Breen (www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html) in Austrailia did a lot of work on a mother-of-all-japanese-electronic dictionaries. His publicly available database is an ambitious attempt to make a universal dictionary. It's mostly English <--> Japanese but it also has lots of French, German and Russian entries. An earlier version of Breen's database is the basis for the dedicated client app, JQuickTrans which is now unmaintained but very, very cool. http://www.coolest.com/jquicktrans/
*** Of late, dedicated client apps seem to be on the wane for such projects. On the rise are web-based apps like breen's own wwwjdic (above), http://www.rikai.com/perl/HomePage.pl?Language=Ja and http://jgram.org/
** I've done a bit of fussing with Breen's database using the .net framework but ran into problems doing fast searches of a 37 mb xml database. I'm wondering if anyone else is interested in similar problem spaces. If so, please post here.
-- Mike Rosen
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* '''Collaborative Music''' - How to share music with your friends / find out about music your friends listen to that you might like. Shared playlists? Group-defined radio stations? Social networking + music mashups?
Leo Dirac
** maybe also a conversation covering what internal/personal music-management tools you use, and how do you remain “familiar” with your growing music collection—Noahv 16:37, 24 Apr 2006 (CDT)
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* ‘’‘How do I get my X to do Y’‘’; Open, Collaborative Problem Solving’‘’
* ‘’‘Livejournal Mashups’‘’ - what services can be integrated into LJ (del.icio.us, flickr), how hard would it be to do this
* are there any other geeks at this event involved in major ‘’‘house renovations’‘’? might be interesting to commiserate and / or swap tips
Justin Martenstein
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* ‘’‘Thinking Skills for all this Problem Solving and Innovation’‘’ - I’ve been learning about Edward de Bono’s [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Thinking_Hats Six Thinking Hats] lately, along with his [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_thinking Lateral Thinking]. My guess is that we’ll do a lot of cool thinking this weekend, and that it will be more natural to think smart around lots of other smart thinkers. But what about when we get back to work and normal life? How might these thinking skills help us maintain momentum back in the real world? I’m a newcomer to this material—willing to discuss and wondering if any experts are out there…
** I know about problem solving and creative thinking techniques (including DeBono’s work) and could do show and tell, anyone else interested in this session? Berkun
* ‘’‘GTD (Getting Things Done)’‘’ - How many other GTD’ers are out there? How about sharing tips, tricks, hacks, tools? I’ve used GTD for a few years now, and have used a variety of configurations of trusted systems involving:
** PDAs
** ListPro
** OneNote
** Audio Journalling (voice recording)
** MindManager
** ResultsManager
** Outlook
** GTD Outlook Add-in (netcentrics)
** Paper and Pen
::+1 ‘’orcmid 15:58, 28 Apr 2006 (CDT)’‘
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* The Good Thing Rapid Discovery Slam—Bring something short and interesting to read or show—something that has inspired you (or been caused as a result of you being inspired). Can be original or someone else’s work. Bring stuff from every genre—the blogosphere, novels, poetry, tech, business, software/product design, whatever. Watch and listen to things that are inspiring and provoking minds from your tribe—help wiki out details here >> The Good Thing Rapid Discovery Slam—and yes we’re really doing it at 2.0
Bryan Zug & Scott Berkun
** This is the coolest idea I’ve seen yet, from two of the best SMC1 presenters, natch… I’m thinking maybe something from “The Space Child’s Mother Goose”, a slim volume from my formative years… Might I suggest maybe this session be held later on in the evening, when people are starting to get a little less techy and a little more laid back? Michael Gerlek
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* Drupal Development??—I haven’t done any yet but would love to attend a session if anyone wants to do something on Drupal—particularly custom module development.
Bryan Zug
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* ‘’‘MathML Discussion’‘’—Presenting mathematical and scientific work on the web; also sharing data for remote computation. ‘‘Et cetera’‘. http://www.w3.org/Math/
Andrew Musselman
::+1 ‘’orcmid 15:58, 28 Apr 2006 (CDT)’‘
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* ‘’‘Millennium Problems’‘’—Work from home, make a million dollars. http://www.claymath.org/millennium/
Andrew Musselman
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* ‘’‘How to Find Prime Numbers’‘’—I’d like to hear from people who are familiar with existing methods. I have a graphical demonstration using a method related to the Binomial Theorem in ‘’‘[http://www.portsmith.org/a/math/PascalModN/ Lo-fi]’‘’ and ‘’‘[http://www.portsmith.org/a/math/PascalModN-HIFI/ Hi-fi]’‘’.
Andrew Musselman
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* ‘’‘Juggling’‘’—Right, so no one wants to get all sweaty and such, and yeah, it’s the wrong sort of venue for clubs and unis—‘‘but,’’ some gentle instruction on 3-ball juggling for the non-jugglers followed by some simple ball passing games might not be amiss… I’m way out of practice, but I’d be happy to lead this session if others are interested in following (and willing to bring their own beanbags and such). Add a note here if interested.
Michael Gerlek
Contact juggling too? Leo Dirac
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* ‘’‘LionKimbro’‘’ - if you’re reading this, please do a session on ‘’‘[http://www.communitywiki.org/en/MetaphysicalCode Metaphysical Code]’‘’
Justin Martenstein ‘‘OK; I will- Registered on Lightning Talks’’ LionKimbro
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* ‘’‘Board Games’‘’ - simple games with intruiging player interaction, mechanics, patterns. Possibilities: Coloretto, Geschenkt, Bohnanza, ‘’‘[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hex_(game) Hex, a.k.a. Nash]’‘’.
** ‘’‘Hex aside’‘’—There are lots of online Hex things, but here’s a quick-and-dirty 7-by-7 ‘’‘[http://portsmith.org/a/flash/hex6.swf Hex scratchpad]’‘’(source file in Box.net). Talk with Andrew Musselman about Hex. Note that according to etiquette the first move should not be in the center cell.
* ‘’‘Psychology and Game Theory’‘’ - Decision Theory games such as [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimatum_game The Ultimatum Game] and concepts like Nash Equalibrium.
Chad Urso McDaniel
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* ‘’‘Hands on Microcontroller programming/theory/etc’‘’
* ‘’‘Hands (laptops?) on, guided software cracking demo’‘’
* ‘’‘Console/handheld Modding’‘’—Encompasing homebrew, upgrades, expansion, etc. I can run this one if people are interested..
* ‘’‘Basics of demoscene style graphics coding’‘’—Maybe this would just be a group study session? Run through some oldschool demo tutorials together, with someone on hand to help when people get stuck? [http://pouet.net pouet] [http://scene.org scene]
** I’d consider this - especially do to so on OSX. Djryan
* ‘’‘Swap Meet’‘’—There had been discussion of something like this before.. Is there still interest? I have tons of random hardware to bring to swap if so. :)
** Yes! If you want to list some of things you are thinking about bringing, use the Bring Stuff page. (Justin Martenstein)
** This is a wonderful idea. I’m taking the liberty of making Swap Meet a link to differentiate from stuff you’re actively trying to sell/trade versus you’re bring just to show off… (HbSiegel)
Scott Bradner
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* ‘’‘Putting ‘‘where’’ into a database’‘’. Spatial databases - basic what and how to (for those interested), and brainstorm where they could be used now, but are not. The effects of spatially enabled camera phones can be discussed in a following session. (Galen)
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* Mini Puzzle Hunt?
* Next Generation of Internet Search?’‘’
* Would any one be interested in a brainstorming session which combines ‘’‘“Open, Collaborative Problem Solving”’’’ and ‘’‘“The Good Thing Rapid Discovery Slam”’’’ and incorporates the Mahatma Ghandi quote - “Be the change you want to see in the world?” (Possibly led by Scott Berkun? :-)) (Andi)
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Topic that I’d like to brainstorm about at Mind Camp:
‘’‘Computational thinking:’‘’
*In the early 70s, no one imagined there’d be more computers in our homes than TVs
*In the early 80s, no one imagined regular people, every day, would do their own word processing and financial spreadsheets
*In the early 90s, no one imagined hundreds of millions of people, every day, would be researching, shopping, chat, mailing, fileswapping and gaming on the Internet
*In the early 21st century, no one imagines that people will be casually and effectively programming their computers (especially the mobile ones!) every day
But they will be. The keys are: ‘’‘Simplicity’‘’. ‘’‘Accessibility’‘’. And support for the ‘’‘killer scenarios’‘’ that interest people enough to make them want to do this. Scenarios around gaming, music, photos and chatting, for instance.
I’m exaggerating (slightly) when I say ‘no one’, of course. Check out this [http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wing/www/ct-paper.pdf paper on Computational Thinking], by Dr. Jeannette Wing at Carnegie Mellon University.
(Jon_Schwartz)
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Another topic that I’d like to brainstorm about at Mind Camp:
‘’‘Where Virtual Meets Reality:’‘’
This is already happening, but there’s a technical evolution of Internet standards which I think could happen (now) to make Virtual Reality available as a ubiquitous experience of computing. Lots and lots to talk about here, including:
*’‘'What’s already happening here?’‘’ (Second Life, MMOs, online commerce and digital product, existing connections between virtual and real economies - others?)
*’‘'Where is this likely to go?’‘’ (This is half brainstorming and half science fiction - but we’re actually the technologists who will help make this happen!)
*’‘'How do we get there from here?’‘’ (I submit that much of the technology already exists to take the 2D experience of the Internet into 3D today - and that we can talk about specific problems and specific technology standards which we already know about)
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‘’‘Common Web 2.0 trends:’‘’
Most of the web 2.0 type products have some common trends: AJAX-powered interfaces, mashups, collaborative filtering etc.
Some of these have libraries built around them that make it a lot easier to program them (AJAX, for example). Others don’t. I think there is a strong need to create libraries for common languages (Ruby is my preference) that do most of these things without a lot of pain.
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‘’‘Quines:’‘’
I’d be interested in having someone discuss [http://www.madore.org/~david/computers/quine.html quines] with me.—Noahv 16:37, 24 Apr 2006 (CDT)
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‘’‘Micro-ISV’s:’‘’
For those of us who own (or want to own) our own small development shops. How do you find and validate software ideas? How do you keep the cashflow going while you’re getting version 1.0 out the door?
I am the Microsoft Evangelist for Micro-ISVs and would love to talk to any and all of you about a new program I’m about to unleash to help Micro-ISVs…Project Glidepath
(Michael Lehman - You can find me by looking for the guy in the bright green shirt with PDC05 Buzzcaster on it)
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I’d love to see someone do the homemade laser-printer/PCB manufacturing from start to finish. Seems simple enough, but would actually like to see how it works in practice before I assemble the necessary materials at home. HbSiegel
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‘’’ del.icio.us inside ‘’‘
Findability inside the firewall stinks. Good full-text search systems can help, as can well-designed metadata backed with well-designed controlled vocabularies. Could these strategies be augmented with collaborative bookmarking tools ala del.icio.us? IBM seems to think [http://www.acmqueue.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=344 they might].
Here are just a few questions surrounding shared bookmarking and folksonomy in the enterprise:
*What are ways you can leverage tag/bookmark data in traditional search systems?
*How does tagging augment top-down classification and categorization?
*How do you get people to share?
*Will they do it inside a structured hierarchy?
*Would private groups within an enterprise tagging system push out positive social network effects?
*How does collaborative tagging change KM?
*Will novel patterns of semantic agreement emerge from tagging?
*Or is tagging just another echo chamber?
*Who would tag their content?
*How (with what software) would they tag it?
*What’s in it for the taggers? (the del.icio.us lesson)?
*What would the discovery solutions look like?
*Is there a critical mass number of users to make internal, behind-the-firewall tagging successful?
*And if so, what is that number?
*And if there is a number, does that mean only companies with x number of employees can play tag?
Managed or organic taxonomies (or both)?
[http://arxiv.org/abs/cs.DL/0508082 The Structure of Collaborative Tagging Systems]
Geoffrey Froh and Michael Braly and Alex Barnett
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‘’‘Have a smaller topic? Do a Lightning talk!’‘’
The Lightning Talks will be a full session of five minute talks. It’ll be a whirlwind tour of ideas.
Show something interesting you’ve done lately, talk about your favorite new discovery, beg for help with a difficult problem, proclaim a call to action, tell us about a successful project or about a failed project, pull out that sweet hack you did, make someone ELSE do a talk. We want to hear it all.
We’ll have a sign-up sheet posted.
A more detailed description of Lightning talks can be found here: http://perl.plover.com/lightning-talks.html
‘‘Hope you don’t mind; I’m linking Lightning Talks to it’s own page.’’—LionKimbro
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‘’‘The Uplifter Movement’‘’
I’d like to do a session on the [http://uplifter.org/wiki Uplifter] movement, with an eye to starting Uplifter Seattle. Is anyone out there interested in maybe paneling or otherwise collaborating on this?
Stuart Maxwell
::+1 ‘’orcmid 15:58, 28 Apr 2006 (CDT)’‘
Bring what you know about running a wiki, the problems you have, the problems you’ve solved, your prefered wiki engine, ideas and concepts, etc.
Chris Murphy
::+1 ‘’orcmid 15:58, 28 Apr 2006 (CDT)’‘
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‘’‘AJAX and the implications of a richer web’‘’
A number of topics I think would be interesting and fun for the group.
* Usability benefits of AJAX. Talk about the benefits of usability in web apps and also some of the commone pitfalls in AJAX UIs (also how to avoid these pitfalls).
* AJAX Showcase. Would be fun to look at whole bunch of cool RIAs and their interfaces and discuss the associated design patterns and they were decided on. There would be a lot of value in screen capturing this sessiong for a blog or wiki. Wouldn’t have to be limited to AJAX either, there’s lots of cool Flex and Flash stuff out there. Even cool hybrid apps!
* AJAX and the online Office. What’s the business for AJAX applications? How would we benefit from a fully funcional online office suite? Does it even make sense? How can we benefit from dropping the document concept and focusing on the data. Get a sneak peak of AJAX based excel app.
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=== OpenPGP-based medical marijuana registry ===
I have an idea for a secure medical marijuana ID card system: http://inwa.net/~ben/mmj_card/
At least one non-profit registry is forming that is interested in using this technology. They are concerned about costs, which might make smart cards cost prohibitive. I’m not the most crypto-savvy, but I’ve been in discussion with an intelligent Bay Area cryptographer who thinks that, instead of storing keys on smart cards, the key should be converted to a salted hash, then converted to a barcode, which can be printed on any cheap plastic card, but should be as usable as a smart card.
This is an idea I’d like to implement soon, and am looking for an openpgp expert for development help. I believe my bay area friend actually has a working model, but we need a local person to help make it happen.
=== PHP Online Survey Infrastructure ===
http://inwa.net/posi/
This is some code we use to do surveys. It’s finally to a point where we’re ready to release it. It’s all class-based php/mysql. One thing it desperately needs is a more intelligent admin interface. Right now it’s just a phpMyEdit front end, but it needs to do more than that, like when a question is added it needs to think a bit and update the branching table in various ways. We’re looking for an object-oriented and interested php developer to make a more useful admin interface.
Note: The code isn’t actually on that page yet, just a wiki.
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=== Encouraging collaboration/participation ===
Can the style and formatting of an electronic presentation (MindManager, PowerPoint, etc.) encourage collaboration?
See http://blog.mindjet.com/2006/03/can-a-map-style-encourage-participation
I can give a talk on using Mindjet MindManager to facilitate collaboration and idea generation.
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=== What will I wish I saved 10 years from now? ===
This would be a discussion format brainstorming session. Assuming that our tools will continue to get better and better what should we be logging/saving now, which might become more useful later? Looking back I wish I had grabbed a GPS earlier and logged more than I have - the visualization tools are so much better now.
More details on the session notes page: MC2 Notes: What will I wish I saved 10 years from now
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‘’‘Micro-ISV’s:’‘’
For those of us who own (or want to own) our own small development shops. How do you find and validate software ideas? How do you keep the cashflow going while you’re getting version 1.0 out the door?
(JohnMoody)
(note: Someone deleted this several revisions ago. Please be careful about deleting other people’s stuff!)
::John, scroll up. It seems to be there. Easy to miss. ‘’orcmid 15:58, 28 Apr 2006 (CDT)’‘
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=== New learning, user-centered, and more… ===
There’s a bunch of stuff I’d like to chat about or lead a discussion on-here are a couple:
* Is the classroom dead? - Learning and responding to change. What strategies do you employ to gain knowledge and expertise? Do those strategies change based on domain: job, technology, hobbies, etc? Is formalized learning in the classroom outdated, if so how?
* Bringing users to life during design - What are the ways you bring users into the design process from the conventional to the creative? What information is helpful to know about the people you are designing for? As a user yourself, what would be helpful for designers of products to know?
Emma Rose
::+2 ‘’orcmid 15:58, 28 Apr 2006 (CDT)’‘
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=== Let’s Build A Web Application using Ruby on Rails/mySQL ===
I thought it would be cool to get some people together and see how quickly we can:
* Agree on a project to develop
* Design the project
* Build the project
* Deploy the project
* Market the project
I’ve been impressed with how quickly I can develop on Rails alone, compared to using Java at my day job as part of a larger team. I think an experiment like this would be fun for a number of reasons.
Will Merydith
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=== Help write a book about how innovation happens ===
I’m working on my second book for [http://www.oreilly.com O’Reilly] and can use some help. The book is about how new ideas and innovations actually develop - why do some ideas take off and others do not? What can be learned from the true stories about how things like television, the internet, web browsers and mobile phones were invented and designed? Is Web 2.0 really all that innovative (why/why not?)
If there’s interest I can blab about my research so far, and lead a fun discussion where you can tell me how you think innovations are made. Happy debates and rants welcome.
Scott Berkun
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=== Declarative / Functional Programming ===
* Programming at the level of ‘‘being’’ rather than ‘‘doing’‘. In particular, functional programming for image synthesis & image manipulation, as in [http://conal.net/Pan/Gallery Pan] and [http://conal.net/Pajama Pajama].
* Domain-specific embedded languages (DSELs)—piggy-backing a functional language for easy implementations of domain-specific languages.
* Compiling DSELs ([http://conal.net/papers/jfp-saig paper]).
* A universal, authorable, openly extensible and ‘‘computational’’ basis for all information on the web.
* A new approach to end-user non-syntactic “programming” ([http://conal.net/papers/icfp06-submission paper]).
Conal Elliott
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=== Speaking and Listening with Clarity and Heart ===
Introduction to [http://awakeningcompassion.com Compassionate Communication] (also called “Nonviolent Communication” or NVC). NVC is a simple but profound shift in how we think, speak, and listen, that inspires giving and enables mutual support. It gives an alternative to blame, criticism, domination/submission, and right/wrong.
Conal Elliott
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=== How to get “Rails-like” agility from ASP.NET ===
Ruby on Rails is hot these days; we’d all love to realize its claims of enhanced productivity. But face it, we’re living in the shadow of MSFT here: many of us are .NET by trade, and unable or unwilling to make a wholesale platform change. So, is it possible to get the specific benefits of Rails alongside the strengths of .NET?(better dev & component support, etc…) Towards this end we’ve been building a platform that bundles an ORM package, System.Web, and XSLT in interesting & AJAXy ways, and the end result seems pretty close to Rails to my untrained eye. Emphasis is on practical development since a real app is driving design decisions.
I’m curious if other people are working towards the same goal. If so, track me down!
Steve Eisner
Hi Steve, I’m very interested in this topic - specifically an ORM based on .NET reflection, and I’ll be tracking you down. - Adam Loving
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=== Learning to Love IRC and Use It Too ===
[Thanks to whoever started to break this page up with titles so we can edit locally while thinking globally.]
Yes, I don’t want to know the IRC channel number. I want to actually for the first time ever successfully connect to one of those channels. It would be useful to see a real how-to and a way to troubleshoot and actually plug into freenode.net. I’m desparate. I would like to arrive at a venue and have this figured out first, but this is MindCamp, and why not have it work.
Dennis E. Hamilton
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=== Peerocracy Discussion ===
Would anyone like to figure out how companies can:
* Reward people fairly for what they accomplish
* Help people find, share, and work together on new ideas
* Let people see how what they are doing fits into the big picture
If anyone is interested I’ve been mulling on an idea and cobling together a demo to tackle this problem.
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==== HelpShare API Brainstorm ====
I am working on building an API for the question & answer site [http://HelpShare.com HelpShare] where answers are rewarded with real money.
I hope to find others with experience or ideas in this area to guide our work.
We are planning to:
* add “Blog This” buttons on questions and answers
* implement the Metaweblog API for posting questions and answers.
* build an EdgeIO-style question collector that aggregates questions from other Web sites.
__NOTOC__
== Social Problem Solving System Brainstorm ==
* What would an online system look like for providing/developing/comparing solutions to social problems, and social participation in providing solutions?
PhilKlein
== Thinking about Online Collaboration for Second Wave Users ==
* how do we pick/configure/design apps for second wave users?
* what is the role of integration between all the cool 2.0 apps?
* http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/006705.html
NancyWhite
== Sunday - What would an online community/resource for methods for change look like? ==